Episode 288: Jonathan Sangster

Jonathan is an artist, educator, and designer in Chicago, IL.

If you're a part of Chicago's design scene, then you've no doubt heard of the multitalented Jonathan Sangster. They are currently an assistant professor of design at Chicago State University, and they also collaborate on projects involving visual art, design, printed matter, typography and visual experimentation.

We spoke about Jonathan's recent exhibition at this year's Typeforce, and from there they shared a peek into their creative process which challenges binary thoughts by layering expriences and pursuing different points of view through visual outputs. Jonathan also talked about what he learns from his students, the Chicago design community, and a lot more. Thank you Jonathan for your work and for talking with us about what you do!

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Transcript

Maurice: Alright, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Jonathan: My name is Jonathan Sangster. I'm an artist, designer and assistant professor at TEACH at Chicago State University. And I generally frame myself as a maker of all sorts, because I float in that weird realm in between art and design. And I don't really like to pin myself down anyway, I don't think it's necessary. I think a lot of the value in, or if you're trying to determine what your title is, I think the value is more in looking at what you make as opposed to what you call yourself.

Maurice: So what would you say that you make?

Jonathan: I make a lot of different things. At the moment, I'm focusing very heavily on translating ideas and thoughts from a lot of different fields like physics and philosophy and famous literature into screen printing projects that I'm focusing on. The one that I just did, it was exhibited at the most recent Typeforce exhibition, it is actually called Rebecca Solnit, was a favorite author of mine. The piece takes a quote from a book that has been really influential to me, called the mother of all questions. And the quote itself is, "Naming is a crucial part of transformation." Which is really short but, to me, really thought-provoking and really powerful. So in my work, I like to focus on these ideas of both conceptual and physical layering.

Jonathan: Layering the ideas and thoughts so they all interact with each other in unexpected ways, but I also like to take that idea of layering it physically with physical materials, but also technologically using older technology and newer technology to give it an interesting relationship in terms of output.

Maurice: So it sounds like it's kind of a multidisciplinary kind of practice in a way.

Jonathan: It is. And it's one of the ways that I like to focus on working, I don't like to start with an idea and then pin it down to, this idea has to be created this way or made this way. There's never a point where I sit down and go alright, I have this idea and this definitely has to be made on a computer.

Maurice: Talk to me about your creative process in your work. How do you approach a new project that you wanna work on?

Jonathan: I think I approach new projects from a really large and nebulous way. I also, and I think this gets into the idea of why a lot of my designer colleagues point at me and go, yeah, but you're not really a designer, you're more of an artist. Because when I'm trying to figure out what an idea should look like or how it should function, a large part of that is looking at what interests me or what particular medium I'm interested in working in. So it's definitely not as objective as one would think a designer should be focusing on working in.

Jonathan: Like, with the piece that I designed for Typeforce. I was focused on the idea that I wanted to work with translating something from literature that I'd read. But another huge part of this was the fact that I was going to have a large 12 foot wide wall to work on. So that became one of the defining aspects for what it was going to be, in my mind. If I have that much space, then I want to make something that is conceptually large and function as one huge piece, but also be made up of multiple pieces on their own. And I hadn't had the opportunity to work with space that was that large, the idea would have been totally different.

Maurice: Okay, so it sort of sounds like you're focused more on the idea, not necessarily the medium of how it -- well, I guess it kinda plays in both ways, right? Like you said, you kinda try to fill the space based on the idea.

Jonathan: Yeah. Like, it goes back and forth, I think. I think that in a lot of my work, I like to focus on what my own curiosities are, but also focusing on being able to experiment and let what something is going to be come out of the process of doing it. I try to leave space and my creative work for adjustments in path. If I set out to make something like doesn't necessarily have to being whatever that initial visual idea was.

Maurice: I saw when I was going through your portfolio, there's this one project, it's a pair of posters and it's inspired by the book Gender Trouble by Judith Butler. Can you describe that for the audience? Just describe the project and then kinda mention this analog digital layering practice that you used for that particular project.

Jonathan: Okay. So that project is interesting to me because it started in a place that is very comfortable for me, which is thinking about combining different mediums. I practice 35 millimeter photography as well as a lot of other different creative mediums and methods, but with this one I started from a place where I wanted to combine literature and photography, so I thought that doing a poster would be one of the best ways to do that, but then it becomes different because unlike a typical design project, it wasn't about a straightforward communication as much as it was trying to provoke thought, encourage critical thought and also get some sort of emotion that's brought about by the quote itself.

Jonathan: And I'm just going to read the quote. So, it is -- and this is Judith Butler -- "There is no gender identity behind the expressions of gender. That identity is performatively constituted by the very expressions that are said to be its results." And for me, that means a lot conceptually. Because it gets at this idea that we as people construct these ideas that become the boxes that we're supposed to perform in. With this one specifically, if you're looking at the idea of gender, the idea of a man or a woman becomes these weird societally built boxes of what a man is and what a man does, and what a woman is and what a woman does.

Jonathan: And then it becomes bizarre if you think about it, because we as a society and a culture are the ones that determine what these identifying factors are. They're not something that just exists. So taking an idea of that conceptually and combining it with photography is interesting because you get into ideas of concrete visualization and also abstraction and looking at what our eyes think something is versus what it actually is. And I think that working in that way and combining these types of concepts and ideas is really interesting.

Maurice: Do you have a dream project that you would love to work on, or any sort of big personal projects?

Jonathan: That's really interesting, and I'm not entirely sure that I do because one of the things that drives me creatively is being able to pursue questions and pursue methods in digital output that I'm not familiar with or comfortable with, so it's not even a dream project but a dream situation would be able to function in a art studio or design studio that was more built like a scientific lab that was more about coming up with what interesting questions are and what interesting experiments are, and then pursuing that, not necessarily looking for right or wrong answers or a shiny, finished project.

Maurice: When did you know that this was what you wanted to really do for a living? Did you have a very creative childhood? How did this spark to create come about?

Jonathan: I think so. I'd have to call my mom to confirm this, but I think very, very early on I was interested in creating and making, which typically looked like drawing. Which I think isn't atypical for children, but I think I just held onto it longer and that turned into more interesting paths in high school and continuing to draw. In Chicago was in the Gallery 37 program in high school, which was really cool, 'cause we were downtown in this huge lot in the middle of downtown that's set up with all these tents where the students engage in various art practices.

Jonathan: And that was one of the things that was really influential for me, like I focused on printmaking, which was really cool because that's one of the points when you start to figure out oh, okay, I like drawing and this is another way of image making and then follow that path down, you start to wonder what other ways and methods and ideas are behind image making. So that was the beginning of the path for me, and it also allowed me to explore quite a bit visually, I was always into comic books and art and when I got older, that turned into a fascination with contemporary art and abstract art and what these things look like.

Jonathan: I was always interested in graffiti, which turned into an interest in artists like Jenny Holzer and Christopher Wool and looking at how typography is used in art, like what that means, which further down the road in grad school leads me to questions like, what if you've got an artist using type and design that's using type, like what differences are in methodology or in direction.

Maurice: Let's go back to teaching. You mentioned you're an assistant professor of design at Chicago State University. Tell me what's a typical day like for you, what courses are you teaching, stuff like that.

Jonathan: I teach two different classes. This semester, I'm teaching typography one and graphic design three. So days like that are interesting because you've got the freshmen learning the very beginnings of typography and graphic design and the anatomy of typing, everything that's involved in constructing visual language, and then the other half of the day is teaching graphic design three, which is more complicated. So it's teaching juniors and seniors about branding, identity and identity systems and how all of these things function in the world. So it's interesting to have that dichotomy in my day of experience levels, but I love teaching. I've always loved teaching, I've always loved education. I think my mom did a really good job of stressing the importance of what education is and how useful a tool it can be and it was stuck with me ever since.

Jonathan: So I take the educational part of my interests and careers very seriously, and I try to stress that importance to my students as well. In my teaching, a lot of the methodology that I use tends to be focused around the Socratic method of teaching, which is simply just focusing on the questions, like what the questions are or how to ask questions and ask the right questions and figure out what the questions are before you can even start to get this idea of what an answer is.

Jonathan: I mean, it can be particularly frustrating for some students. Trying to foster ideas and critical thinking, but it's exceptionally beneficial, especially in terms of crafting independent thinkers and people that are going to change and craft the world, eventually.

Maurice: Now you've also taught at several other colleges in the Chicagoland area. Throughout all those experiences, what would you say your students have taught you?

Jonathan: I think my students, more than anything teach me empathy and patience. They teach me how to get out of myself when I'm communicating and when I'm trying to relate an idea. It's really important as an educator to remember that everybody's not you and not everybody thinks the way that you do or processes the way you do, and teaching is everyday minute-by-minute opportunity to practice that idea. I think that being able to teach something and empathize with people that you are trying to share knowledge with is also interesting-

Jonathan: -lege with is also interesting because it re-frames the way that you interact with people on a regular basis and communicate with people on a regular basis too.

Maurice: Now, I have a question here. This comes from Selo Lewis who has been a friend to the show. She's also been on the show as well. And she wanted to know, with artists like Kanye West and Virgil Abloh finding success in fashion, design and architecture, of course they're from the Chicagoland area. Have you seen any kind of a growing interest in black artists and designers in the Chicagoland area?

Jonathan: The question is interesting because I don't know if I would say that I've seen any sort of exponential growth based on high-profile people that isn't natural of Chicago and creators and makers and black artists and designers in Chicago. I think that we do a really good job of inspiring ourselves and being part of communities where all of these things are happening all the time. So I think that I would give the credit more to the people on the ground that are doing it, not necessarily the more visible people.

Maurice: Oh yeah. I know what you mean. Like, certainly, I think it's important to be able to show not that there are just examples out there, I think it's great if students are emulating these designers, that's great. But like you said, it also has to kind of come from the personal journey. They have to want to to it themselves, not just because Kanye's got a line out, they're like oh, I'm gonna put a line out, too. Doesn't really work that way.

Jonathan: Yeah, no I agree. I tell me students all the time, I have conversations with my colleagues where I focus on this idea where I believe that if you're a maker of any sort, like artist, designer, whatever, you should feel compelled. There should be a compulsion to be making things. It doesn't matter how small an idea or how big or whether you believe it is going to go somewhere or be something and go out in the world and be successful or not, you should feel compelled to be making, and that's something that's deeply personal.

Jonathan: And I also think it's kinda problematic when we, it's like it's good to have examples of black creatives out in the world doing things, being inspirational and showing people that you can be successful with these things. But I also think the idea of celebrity is something that's very dangerous. In America, we tend to over-value high-profile people and there becomes this placement of value on everything that they do and say that becomes very dangerous, because if you've got a successful, high-profile person, then the conversation starts to become well, if this person's successful, then everything they're doing must be great, right?

Maurice: That can be a trap.

Jonathan: That can be very dangerous, especially for younger people that are seeking inspiration and looking for people to emulate and role models, this is why I think that the idea of critical thinking is so important. If you're inspired by what someone makes, that's great, but sometimes you might need to take a deeper look at what they're saying and look at how that's different from what they're making, in look at that's inspirational to you and what's useful to you and take parts that aren't useful and inspirational and leave the rest of it.

Maurice: For you, what is the Chicago design community like?

Jonathan: So, the design community in Chicago I think is great and it can be very welcoming and very inclusive, but I think that we should be very careful how we proceed in the future in terms of who we are, what we are and who we're allowing to participate in our conversations.

Maurice: Now, are you active in the community at all, aside from just being an educator?

Jonathan: I am active in the community. I participate, I'm a member of the creative morning Chicago community, I'm a part of the AIGA where I am the co-lead for the diversity and inclusion committee here, and these ideas of inclusion are like, right at the front of my mind because they're really important, especially if you're trying to build or sustain a community like the AIGA in Chicago. You have to think very deeply about what this group is, what the community is, and if you're talking about diversity and inclusion, that shouldn't just be buzzwords. You should be looking at how diverse and how inclusive your community is, and always trying to push that idea forward.

Maurice: Is that a problem that you run into a lot through AIGA Chicago?

Jonathan: I think there's the problem in general with any sort of organized association.

Maurice: Yeah, that's true.

Jonathan: I'm not a huge fan of professional organizations, but I mean, I think the nature of them is to be a club where the idea is to make people feel special, and like they're part of a club, which automatically means that other people are not involved and not included and invited. So the handling of an idea like that, being part of an association, need to be looked at very, very closely. With the design community and the AIGA in Chicago, I think we do a really good job of trying to be inclusive and welcoming, but I think that there are some ideas that are very established that sometimes aren't looked at critically. Like for me, personally, the idea of money in general is always going to be a great divider, especially in a place like America where it's a consistent focus.

Jonathan: So if you were charging someone membership fees, and you're also charging them money for events that are awesome and educational, and you've got a person like a student, five dollars isn't gonna be a lot of money to me or an established professional, but it might be to them. Like, what to spend five dollars on is a very serious conversation. So then it becomes, are you doing more harm by using money as the key through the gate, right? I think that the most inclusive way to handle it, like are you excluding people just based on money being part of your model for inclusion?

Maurice: The answer to that is yes, but please continue.

Jonathan: I know, right? Like, but these are things that I don't think a lot of people, there isn't that idea of empathy or the idea of, y'know, other peoples' perception, that isn't really part of the conversation. It's like yes, you're a nonprofit organization, yes, make money to continue to put on programming. But the question is one, can you get that money someplace else? And two, are you alienating people by saying that you need to have a certain amount or money or a certain amount of money to be included?

Maurice: I mean, the answer to that is yes, too. I know I'm being maybe a bit flippantly critical of AIGA by saying that, but it's kinda true. I mean, I can just give an example, when I was on the task force, one of the thing that I really -- when I say the task force, it's the diversity and inclusion task force that's part of AIGA at the headquarters -- one of the things that I really wanted to do was try to increase the number of student groups that were at HBCUs, because I think there's only maybe one or two groups at HBCUS. And HBCUs tend to be over-indexed on the east coast and the south, I don't think there's any past Texas perhaps or something, so what do we do to kind of get, if you look at getting more black designers in the field and stuff, how do we increase the number of student groups, so then they can see that this is a viable option from the gate?

Maurice: Well, then I encounter that there's all these goalposts that need to be crossed in order for that to happen. So, in order for there to have a student group, it has to be endorsed by a local chapter in that state, for example. And so, the leader of the student group must also be a member of the city chapter, whatever, whatever that city chapter is. Also, the students have to pay 50 dollars a year, I dunno if they've eliminated this tier that I heard that they had, I heard that they completely got rid of the 50 dollar a year tier. But you have to pay 50 dollars a year to be a member and I think that I was talking to someone about it, and was saying y'know, well isn't there a way that we can waive that in a way?

Maurice: Like say, for example, we're just trying to sort of get seed groups started at certain HBCUs. If you need to have 10 members, that's 500 dollars. Is there not a way that we can waive that just to see if having a student group here is something that can be done? But then I'm told oh, well also, the faculty member needs to be an AIGA member themselves, and they also need to submit research on this, that and the third and I'm like, why are there all of these -- and maybe for other schools these are just drops in the bucket, but to me, it just felt like, why are you putting all of these steps between what the goal is and where are we at right now?

Maurice: Eventually, what ended up happening was we didn't get it going, one, because when we heard back from students, they were saying 50 dollars is too expensive. And again, some of the feedback that I would get mostly from much older people, would be like, 50 dollars? That's nothing, kids have 50 dollars these days. You can spend 50 dollars on a video game. You can spend 50 dollars on an AIGA membership. I'm like, yeah, but they're probably gonna get more value and good times out of a video game. Like, real talk.

Jonathan: But do you remember college? Like, it's a different world, it's a different assignment of value to each individual dollar.

Maurice: Yeah. I had two jobs in college and was still broke.

Jonathan: Right. I don't know. I don't think I know anybody that was comfortable in college in terms of would have gone and spent whatever they wanted on whatever they wanted.

Maurice: I have to ask this. We're talking very critically about AIGA and of course you're a member of your local chapter in a leadership position. Do you feel like there's a conflict between your role as an educator, the current feelings you have about the organization, and I guess, I dunno, what you're doing right now with -- I dunno, is there a conflict, I guess, is what I'm curious about. Do you feel that in any sort of way?

Jonathan: Probably. There probably is. I don't know. Whether there is or is not a conflict is not one of the things that I would focus on as important. And in terms of, asking questions is really important in my life and in my work. In looking at or being able to identify the questions that revolve around this conflict, that's what's important to me. Am I functioning in the capacity in education where I'm trying to better young peoples' lives? Do I believe that the design community in Chicago is doing a good job? Can they do better? Is my involvement in this design community or AIGA going to assist in that betterment?

Jonathan: These questions, I don't know if there's a conflict in my point of view or in my association with the community. But I think that I'm putting myself in a position where I'm trying to help.

Maurice: How do you think we can increase diversity in the design community when there are challenges right now with let's say, with identity, for example. And when I say identity, I'm using that in a very broad way. I'm also thinking of diversity in a very broad way. I'll give you an example. AIGA, going back to AIGA, traditional organization deals with print designers, mostly, but hasn't really done a lot around the modern concept of a designer, like when we think of a UX designer or maybe motion graphics designer, or say, a product designer. Not really a place for them in AIGA. About two years ago, I interviewed this guy, he's in Seattle, his name is Timothy Bardlavens. And he wrote this piece on Medium about saying goodbye to the organization, because to him, he didn't feel like the organization valued him as a UX designer.

Maurice: So it wasn't even an issue of race, he's a black man, didn't have anything to do with that. It was more so like, I'm at the point where I'm giving 5,000 dollars a year to AIGA, and what you're telling-

Maurice: $5,000 a year to AIGA and what you're telling me is that my profession doesn't matter to the organization. How do you think we can help kind of increase diversity in the community given challenges like that?

Jonathan: You know, I don't know. I don't know if I have the answer for that. I've got tons of questions but I think that the beginning of an answer that probably looks at like this idea of the binary that applies to a lot of things, right, I think applies to what are these, what design it is, like what people are, what identities for people are, right. If we can start by getting out of this mindset where everything is a binary answer like a yes or no, an either or or, I think that we can get closer to being more inclusive because we're going to have to start looking at everything that's in that middle ground, in the gray area in identifying what and who is in there, right? If you can't acknowledge like what's in the middle ground, what's in the gray, right then you can't figure out who it is, what their names are, what they're called and you're not going to be able to include them at all so I think that would be a good start, right?

Jonathan: If you're talking about the design field, the question isn't are you a graphic designer or not, right, because what does that even mean? This is why generally I like to frame people, practices, methods in the field as creatives or makers, right because that can encompass a lot of different things, like a different ways of working, a lot of different ways of being, a lot of different interests. That's one of the things that is going to make the community stronger, is by, I don't know, maybe letting go of these strict definitions of identity and role. I don't know, like a question about what someone is or isn't is weird to me in a way and I hate to keep going back to this, right but AIGA, it's like you could [inaudible 00:32:32] like had no degree, no role and a profession in graphic design but they wanted to be involved, I would think that that would be of interest to the community because they're interested, right and I think that that should probably be one of the defining aspects of the community is being interested in the community.

Maurice: I can see that. I mean and I'll be honest with you and again, I know we keep going back to AIGA. For the longest time, I was told that you had to be, like you had to went to arts school or have like a degree in design to be a member of AIGA. I have been told this for years. My background is at math, I don't have a design degree, I didn't go to design school or anything. It was until I spoke with someone from AIGA in 2014 that kind of convinced me to join and then I was able to kind of be a part of things so. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I totally understand that like you do have to kind of break out of that notion of what a designer is or what that binary is like if you're a part of it or if you're not a part of it, but it's a tricky question but I feel like as, certainly I think as technology has influenced design, it's what precipitating the change in these kinds of organizations and that's what's fueling these kinds of questions, right.

Maurice: Technology has made it a lot easier for people to be designers or to be in this field without maybe having gone through a traditional path. Technology has made it now so there is no traditional path in design. You can get into this whether you went to school, didn't go to school, doesn't really matter so I think as we acknowledge that, certainly there needs to be more discussion around what that means in terms of inclusion and diversity, but also just I think overall acceptance of the field because I think one thing we can all agree is that whether we went to design school or not, the value of design is grossly different in different spheres, right? Like designers might recognize other designers with the business world, not so much. If you're a freelancer, you certainly know how hard it can be to sell your services to a client that doesn't value design. They just see it as a means to an end so it's an ongoing conversation, I feel.

Jonathan: Yeah, and I think that, right like looking at how technology plays a role in this and the democratization of tools, creative tools, technological tools and software, it's like the conversation has to shift and I think it will shift and like much faster because like all of these things that we've come to learn and understand in a traditional sense are not going to exist anymore and I think that we're going to have to adjust how we assign value.

Maurice: Now with your background being in graphic design as well as fine art, how do you see art and design benefiting from each other?

Jonathan: I think that's interesting because, and this is like one of the ideas that I focus on working on my thesis in grad school. I'm not entirely, I think never been entirely sure that the distinction really matters. It's like I'm told repeatedly that it's super important and that art and it can't be design and design is design and it can't be art and it's a churn, I guess. I don't think that it's super important to answer that question, right but when you start looking at it more from an angle of how these things play a role in society and what they do to people and for people, I think that that's a more interest in perspective to examine it from. If you're talking about like how art design can and form each other, they have, they always have and they always will, it's like the tools are not different, the ideas, concepts are well, sometimes they're different and sometimes they're not.

Jonathan: I think the conversation, I mean for me at least, is how visual language and visual communication can play a role in helping people in shaping their lives and when I say help people, it's like help them in terms of literacy and getting up the block, you know feeling good about themselves like supporting mental health or, it's like I mean help in really broad way, right so the distinction between art and design isn't as important as looking at them both dual lens of visual language and how that can be used to help society and help that culture.

Maurice: When did you know that this was what you wanted to do for a living?

Jonathan: I'm not entirely sure that I do know that. I have lots of different interest and I'm interested in a lot of things. Being involved in art and design is important to me but I think that in terms of making a solid competent decision about pursuing art and design and not something like the philosophy or physics, I'm still not entirely sure that I have to choose but I mean I love, love fine art and I love design and it's what I'm doing right now but, I mean I tell my students these a lot of the time, right because you are practicing graphic design, that doesn't mean that your entire focus, your entire world should be design. I think as creatives and makers, like we're swarmed by lots of different things, right.

Jonathan: Everything that we're looking at, like reading and absorbing throughout, today and through our lives, all of these things are going to then form who you are as a creative, right. I think it's kind of a mini step to like pin people down in terms of telling them what they should be interested in because they've chosen a certain path, because I'm an artist and a designer, it's like I don't sit around and look, I'm crying, reading art and design blogs or only reading graphic design books, like it's really large world with really interesting things and all of those things are or can be connected somehow so I don't, I think that was, not entirely sure I even answered your question.

Maurice: Let me flip it then so if you weren't doing what you're doing right now as a design educator, what would you be? What would you want to do?

Jonathan: I think I would be a scientist of some sort probably, probably functioning in physics or psychology and I think that that probably creeps into a lot of my work in a lot of different ways especially in terms of curiosity and experimentation so kind of look at design scientist.

Maurice: Design scientist. There might be an opening for that somewhere. There might be an option to do that.

Jonathan: Yeah, I need to look into that. It'd be a fascinating job.

Maurice: I did interview someone, this was years ago, but she's a doctor. She's a medical doctor and a designer so I think it's possible.

Jonathan: I think that's what I'm talking about, like this isn't about like that one things that you want to do is, I don't know, unnecessary?

Maurice: Yeah.

Jonathan: I think there's so many things to be interested in and to learn about. It's like you know, if you're interested in something, learn about it. It's like moving, sit at your desk and create graphic design all day long, doesn't mean you have to sit at home and read graphic design books when you get home and cook, read something else.

Maurice: What's next for you? Like where do you see yourself in the next few years or so?

Jonathan: It's a good question, right because everything in my life is making and teaching so it'll probably look something like that, working really hard on getting tenured so that's probably going to be a part of it but I want to continue to experiment and everything that I'm doing in art and in design and what that intersection looks like, but I'm also really interested in literature and I'd love to be able to write a book. I've got tons of ideas about what that looks like. Actually, let me take that back. There might actually be like my [inaudible 00:41:51] project and once you write a book and also design it.

Maurice: Okay. Well just kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more about you and about your work online?

Jonathan: My website is jonathansangster.com, J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-S-A-N-G-S-T-E-R. Gangster is spelled like Sangster, I think that looks a lot of people you know pin that, it makes a little bit easier and I also post pretty regularly on Instagram as well and my handle there is jonathan_sangster. Those are the two primary visual outputs for where you can find my work and also if you want to reach out and have a conversation about art, design, collaborating, work, education, let me know.

Maurice: Sounds good. Well, Jonathan Sangster, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I mean I think it's important for designers, wherever we're at in our profession, freelance, in-house, just starting out, whatever, to kind of be able to look at not just ourselves critically but look at the field critically and what we represent and know that there's not just one path that we can take. There's certainly different paths that we can go down and that it's important you know as I think you said before to function in these areas where there's not such a clear cut binary choice between things so I hope in this interview, people get that from what you said. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Jonathan: Thank you, Maurice.